Robert Nason, where are you now?

BRUCE CLARK – PRESENTER:

You pick up your newspaper this morning, the Herald Sun, and see on the front page not a story about the Carlton Draught Cox Plate but a headline which says turf war, overseas horses may be banned in bookie brawl.

 Frightening stuff to think that we’ve had countless runners.  The … Racing Victoria spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in promoting the Melbourne Cup and the Melbourne spring carnival around the world.  Of course the first international winner for the Melbourne Cup dates back to 1910, that was Comedy King.  Beldale Ball, of course in 1980.  We’ve had a raft of overseas runners. 

The theory on the front page of the Herald Sun this morning says that if Betfair’s gaining a licence in Australia that we won’t be promoting Australian racing around the world and we’ll ban English and European horses from the Melbourne Cup.

Extraordinary stuff.  Let’s go to Racing Victoria’s CEO Robert Nason and get the latest.  Robert, good morning to you.

ROBERT NASON – RACING VICTORIA:

Hi Bruce, how are you?

CLARK:

Is this grandstanding, is this fair dinkum, are we going to ban these internationals from coming to Australia and complimenting our racing?

NASON:

Look, the background to this is the fact that two weeks ago, fifty-three horseracing nations passed a resolution in Paris, basically agreeing to what was called a good neighbour policy, where any administration that licensed the bookmaker to operate in someone else’s market, in someone else’s country, without the permission of the local racing administration was to take … make every endeavour to eliminate that behaviour or not licence that bookmaker.  So we have gone … that was passed two weeks ago.  We have now approached the British Horseracing Board and asked them to tell us what they’re doing about eliminating the behaviour of Betfair in operating in this market without a license and subject to that response, the next step is sanctions.  And I think Andrew Ramsden from the Australian Racing Board is right in saying it’s a last resort action, but one of the sanctions we’re talking about is looking at collaborating with the other racing nations.  So, it’s not just Australia we’re talking about, which won’t have that big an impact in the UK, but it will have a very large impact if the US and the Asian racing nations support this sort of approach where UK horses only run in the UK and aren’t available and aren’t welcome anywhere else in the world because of the activity of Betfair and betting exchanges that are only licensed in the UK. 

CLARK:

You would certainly agree, the internationalisation of the Melbourne Spring Racing Carnival has been of great benefit to the Australian racing industry as a whole.

NASON:

Absolutely, and it’s something we want to … we spent a lot of time doing it, and we certainly don’t want to impact the owners and trainers, necessarily, from the UK in terms of this action.  That’s why we’re saying that would be a last resort.  We’re looking at other potential forms of sanction that we may want to put forward, including wagering on UK races in all overseas markets, so that would have a significant impact in returns into the UK.  So all of those things are being examined at the moment.

But as I said in the past, Bruce, we are not giving up on this issue.  We are not going to lie down just because the federal government has chosen not to act and just allow this operator to damage the integrity of Australian Racing so we’ll take all actions we can to eliminate (indistinct).

CLARK:

But can you see from the person who picks up … the non-racing person who picks up the Herald Sun this morning and reads turf war, bookies … overseas horses may be banned.  You have the Tabcorp chief executive saying jockeys may have guns pointed at their legs.  This is extraordinarily grandstanding stuff.

NASON:

You say grandstanding.  It’s the facts of the matter.  What do you call eighty horse races being rigged in one racing (indistinct) …

CLARK:

Do we have examples, do we have proof of that?

NASON:

… which is what’s happened in the UK.  You’ve got criminal charges being laid in the UK.  When has that ever happened in Australia, Bruce?

CLARK:

I don’t think we have had criminal charges laid against (indistinct).

NASON:

This grandstanding claim; we said we going to take action, we said we were going to eliminate betting exchanges.  We are talking about the future of Australian racing.  It is that important.

Fifty-three of fifty-four racing nations throughout the world think that they are an evil, they are destined to have a hugely detrimental effect on the industry.  Every Australian state, every Australian regulator thinks that, so why do you call that grandstanding?  It’s just the facts of the matter.

CLARK:

Paul Scotney is the Jockey Club’s head of security, recently on our program and following reports in the English press, said racing is generally clean.  As in other sports, there’s a minority of people trying to get an advantage over others, but that’s because there is money involved, in general, racing is clean.

Are you saying that the Jockey Club in England is wrong?

NASON:

I’m saying that the … I’m saying, and I’ve said that repeatedly, probably the worst level of integrity management of any racing administration anywhere in the world is the UK.  They have no professional stewards, they do no pre-race drug testing, they have no regulatory oversight over bookmakers.  There are only four nations in the world that allow bookmaking, and bookmaking is the root of most of the integrity problems you have in racing.

The other three administrations have very strong regulation over bookmakers, and Australia is one of those.  The UK has none.  So, they are operating in the fifteenth century as far as integrity, and the advent of Betfair where they give (indistinct) access to records, where they get nothing out of their bookmakers is an improvement.  And you’ll get Lord Chancellor this and Lord that saying that that’s an improvement, and it is over there, and now they’re probably in the sixteenth century, but they are nowhere near where we are in Australia.

You know, to actually validate the evidence against these offences, these criminal charges that have been laid in the UK, did they go to the Jockey Club to bring in the experts to give evidence as to whether the jockeys are pulling horses or do they go to Ray Murrihy in Australia, fourteen thousand miles away, to come over to be the expert.  Is that the confidence they have in the Jockey Club?

So going to them as an expert and wheeling those sort of people in front of us is an insult to the integrity of Australian racing.

CLARK:

Mark Davies is there from Betfair.  Mark, good morning to you.

MARK DAVIES – BETFAIR:

Morning Bruce.

CLARK:

You’ve been obviously reading the papers and listening to all this, this morning.  I mean, is Betfair to blame and can we envisage the case because of Betfair’s existence, jockeys having guns pointed at their legs and being knee-capped if they won a race?

DAVIES:

No, I think (indistinct).  Let me just pick up first of all on the point that Robert made there right towards the end.  I think it’s fantastic that Ray Murrihy has been called upon to go and help and give evidence.  But let’s face facts, the reason why is because they want somebody who can be seen to be entirely independent and not just have any involvement (indistinct) before.  So they want somebody from a proper racing jurisdiction, which Australia clearly is, to go and give evidence.  It’s not because they have great concerns about the Jockey Club.  There are parts of the stewarding systems in the UK which, yes, I’m absolutely sure can learn from Australia but I think to start casting aspersions on the British horse racing industry, which is run by an Australian and was described by that Australian earlier this year as being a sport in the ascendency, I think is a little below the belt. 

CLARK:

That of course is Greg Nichols, who is the CEO of the British Horse Racing Board.  Also quoted in the story this morning, Racing Victoria chief steward Des Gleeson says Betfair, Mark, has refused to provide access in the type of betting information needed to identify corrupt factors and to protect the integrity of the industry.  Why is this so, if it is?

DAVIES:

Well, you know the position on that Bruce.  We give up all sorts of information to Des.  I speak with him on a regular basis and he said to me he’s always very happy with the speed of response that he gets from us.  What we don’t do, in line with the TAB, is that we don’t give named information because the Privacy Act prevents us from doing so.   You’ll obviously be aware, as indeed is Des, that we have put in place a mechanism that allows us to give that named information.  And I have said to Des on the phone, and we’ve talked many times about it, that he can change that (indistinct) agreement any which way he wants to do so, providing he keeps us on the right side of the law. 

Unfortunately, as I said to Des before, politics is preventing him from being able to access exactly what he wants.  He knows what he wants.  We know we want to give it to him but there are legal barriers in place preventing us from doing so.

CLARK:

Mark, are you aware if you have licensed people betting with Betfair?

DAVIES:

We’re obviously aware of all the people who are betting on Betfair, so I’m entirely aware of who’s betting on Betfair but I’m afraid I’m not going to be discussing our clients over a radio program, Bruce. 

CLARK:

Okay.  Will you be rewriting again your memorandum of understanding?  Is there anything more you can do to rewrite this that would encourage the Australian racing industry to have further negotiations with you?

DAVIES:

Well, as I say, we’re happy for them to tell us exactly what they want changed within it.  We are very happy to change it because the whole point of the memorandum of understanding is it is there to facilitate cooperation between us and to ensure that they get exactly what they want.  They have to do so within the confines of the law and, providing they can put in place something which enables us to give them information on a legal basis – which is entirely in their interests as well because otherwise they can’t use it properly and effectively – then we’re very happy to run with that. 

CLARK:

Robert Nason, are you keen to work further towards seeking a memorandum of understanding, or are you still pursuing the line that we don’t want Betfair, we’ll do everything in our powers to …

NASON:

Well, I think I’ve been pretty clear on it, Bruce; I’m surprised that you don’t understand that.  But, number one, there is no change that a memorandum of understanding would ever be acceptable to us, because Betfair – Mark and his associates – have drawn the line on the access of information that the stewards have currently to bookmakers’ records.  And so, that is not an option, and very, very clearly we do not want Betfair in Australia.  We do not want them operating, we do not want their presence here.  We want them to turn off the lights and go back to the UK.  And if they want to continue to degrade the integrity of UK racing by operating in the UK, that’s the UK’s business.  We do not want them in Australia.  And any punter out there who is betting with Betfair is doing a disservice to the Australian industry and putting the whole industry at risk.

The owners have said that, the trainers have said that, the jockeys have said that, every racing administration has said that, every state government has said that, and fifty-three of fifty-four racing nations have said that.

So, I don’t know how much clearer I can make that for you, Bruce, but the fact is, they’re not welcome, they’re a danger and they should not be supported by you, your program or the media, or any of the racing journalists.  They should not be supported.

CLARK:

Well Robert, the reason we’re covering the story is because it’s a major issue affecting the punters.  If it makes the front page of a newspaper saying we’re going to ban English horses, that’s why we cover it.  Also, you would have to agree – and Mark Davies (indistinct) this – that you have clients out there who do use the service of this betting exchange, despite what the industry may say.

NASON:

Well, I don’t call that … what I’m jacking up against, Bruce, is you calling this grandstanding.  It’s not grandstanding; it’s protecting your industry from probably the biggest threat that it’s seen.

CLARK:

But it will not be a good thing for the racing industry to have front page headlines which say we’re going to ban international horses in the middle of our spring carnival.  We have two internationals running in the Cox Plate on the weekend.

NASON:

Look, just to be clear on this, if it meant getting rid of Betfair, I would shut down the spring carnival; I would say no spring carnival to get rid of Bet… it’s that important an issue for Australian racing.  If that’s what it took to get rid of them, we would do it.

CLARK:

So, we’re going to shut down the spring carnival …

NASON:

Well I …

CLARK:

… to keep out a betting exchange?

NASON:

We will take whatever action is necessary to eliminate this threat to our racing, whatever action is necessary.  And I se… I forecast this several weeks ago  

CLARK:

Mmm. 

NASON:

… that there are a lot of things in train that we are taking in terms of action, and we are not going to give up.  We are not going to go away.  And Betfair can wheel in Kerry Packer, they can wheel in, you know, the Queen if they want to, we will not be backing away from this ban.

CLARK:

Robert Nason, thanks for joining us.

Last word to you, Mark.  The spring carnival’s going to be shut down because of your organisation.

DAVIES:

Well, you heard me say it before, Bruce, we believe we are a friend to the racing industry.  If you look at what’s happened in the UK where racing funding has doubled in the time that we’ve been around, where the executive director of the Jockey Club responsible for the integrity of the sport is saying that he believes the record of success prior to the emergence of betting exchanges in catching betting (indistinct) was poor, and, in effect, that now the integrity of racing will be enhanced, then these are very good reasons why we are good friends of the racing industry. 

It’s our job to make that clear, but I certainly know, as a result of various meetings that I’ve had with people all over the racing industry in the course of the last month, that we have a number of supporters out there. Robert Nason is clearly not one of them at the moment, but I hope that that changes at some point.

CLARK:

Mark, thanks for joining us.  Mark Davies and Robert Nason handling the Betfair issue once again. 

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